[00:00:00] The Venture Podcast with Lambros Photios.
[00:00:06] The individual I’m speaking with is a gentleman called Phil M Jones. And aside from an individual who’s written a series of books, he travels the world delivering presentations. In fact, he’s delivered over 2000 presentations in over 50 countries. And the presentations that he delivers are around persuading and selling. Phil says that what we need to do is make sure that the exact choice of words that we make are selected in such a way that they maximize our chances of influence and persuasion such that the people that we’re talking with in this sales process feel as though they are able to connect with us and understand what we’re saying. But not so much just that like we normally do in say it was. It’s about making sure that at least the way I understand it, that the questions and answers that are being asked and delivered by us are set up in such a way that they instill confidence and they persuade. Phil, thanks so much for joining me.
[00:01:04] Pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me to be part of the show.
[00:01:07] So tell me a bit more about what it is that you do when it is when you go out there and you present to two audiences or teams within organizations.
[00:01:16] A little bit more about it in Simpliste got a high level format is I help businesses navigate change.
[00:01:23] And that typically finds itself in a scenario where they are looking to improve conversion rates from a sales point of view or to improve some form of sales process that results in increased revenue coming through the door. And it all ties back to language. It ties back to how people can use more of the right words at the right time in order to achieve different outcomes. So that could be anything from keynote presentations to some of the world’s biggest brands to consulting at a higher level around conversations, frameworks to marketing messages. But I’ve realized through all of my years of experience that there were really only three things I’m any good at. And one is acquiring more clients. Two is getting clients to come back more often, and three is getting them to spend more money when they shop. And there seems to be a fairly healthy appetite for companies looking to do more of any of those three things.
[00:02:12] Yeah, definitely.
[00:02:13] I you know, I think I think, you know, I started this podcast, I think was February twenty nineteen. So it’s a year and a half ago now. And, you know, the main mission for the podcast, which I know a lot of our listeners know is to, is to reduce startup failure and fail. To be honest, most of the startups that that I’ve worked with. I see sales as something that as a quality a lot of founders lack. You know, founders could come from whether it be a potentially a non sales background, it could be a technical background. And they’ve been the individual who’s created some sort of a product and taken it to market. And then when it comes time to sell, they find it to be a really awkward experience. There are certain things they know they need to say, but they’re too hesitant to say. I think there’s an emotional barrier or a mental barrier. I should say that they need to get past to be able to ask the right things because they’re used to being so focused on the product and building their team and building culture.
[00:03:09] How is it that you kind of. I do want to get into the I do want to get into the specifics of the right things to say. But before we do. How do you how do you help people to get past that kind of mental hurdle such that they don’t feel like that they are selling or that they become comfortable in their own skin when selling?
[00:03:26] Okay, great question, really. And I think it’s worth playing with the thought of what’s selling really is and I’m going to reverse this question back on you for a second is firstly, as a child, did you or or any of your friends say to each other when I grow up? Well, I’d like to be as a salesperson.
[00:03:44] I don’t think anyone said when I grow up, I want to be a salesperson.
[00:03:47] Right. Is there’s this negative connotations attached to. I’m going to get you to do some more work for me for a second is throw some words at me, some adjectives that would describe a stereotypical salesperson.
[00:03:58] Yeah. Phil, if you take me back to my childhood, which I’m happy to do, you know, I remember the I remember the door to door sales person selling cable Internet. So if I can describe that person, then I’m happy. I’d probably say words like words like invent invasive in your face a little bit too much, if you will. Yeah. Does that does that get us started?
[00:04:17] I guess it started in that sequence of words. If somebody used those now to describe you or anybody listening in right now, if they had that sequence of words, I guess would be less than happy with that description about ourselves. Exactly what if. Now why alternative, though? I ask you to reach for a set of adjectives that would describe not a stereotypical salesperson, but a professional salesperson. How would the adjectives now change?
[00:04:40] You’re putting me on the spot, which I’m completely okay with. I think I think it professionals say always person. I mean, it’s tricky, right? I’m hoping I’m giving you the right answer because I come from a place where I absolutely adore, say I was now. But I think a professional salesperson, the vibe that I get is is generally I think generally honest, to be honest. I think there’s. I think there’s a degree of calmness and and none hesitation and and confidence that comes with that.
[00:05:13] You bet. And if somebody used those words to describe you or anybody listening in right now, received that sequence of words, you’d feel demonstrably different with that description of your characteristics and interest in me in that scenario. There is I changed one word and you changed all the words, right? As I said, stereotypical once I’m around, I said professional the next time around. And you saw two completely different images as to what was faced in front of you. The same thing is true about selling. People want to try and avoid it. And you can’t avoid it. The only thing you can do is reframe your head around is understanding that is truly helping when done the right way. And the goal is never to receive applause for your sales skills. That’s not what you’re looking for a customer to do. The goal that we should be chasing is the receipt of the words. Thank you from the person we’re looking to try and help. And part of the myth of the challenge that gets attached to salesmanship is how it gets glorified and things like the movies. So you you watch The Wolf of Wall Street or you watch Glengarry Glen Ross or any of those sort of big business building movies, and they put all this emphasis on sales success and winning and what it looks like. But any of us who have any integrity about what it is that we do realize that that is winning at somebody else’s expense while somebody else is losing.
[00:06:31] And I think that drives home this negative connotation.
[00:06:34] The what happens is too many people end up thinking that selling is lying or selling is doing some crooked. Yet in today’s money market, if you sell in a way that results in the person not getting what was promised and more or your reputation comes to shore. This huge transparency about the way you do business. So those old ways, unfortunately, not carrying any weight any more or more importantly, fortunately, though, Gerri. And what we’re looking at is people have to act with integrity. They have to act with honesty. Yet the enemy in a modern sales process is actually indecision.
[00:07:09] It’s not the people who choose to not use you. It’s the people who remain undecided.
[00:07:14] And the gift of a great salesperson is somebody who can help somebody in that decision making process. The bulk of startups are looking to be able to create a market or to steal a market from an existing incumbent supplier. Right. Through some form of increased efficiency. And that’s the very premise of the business operation. Which means they have to get involved in conversations with folks to then change their decision or change their attention away from what it is they’re doing right now and get them to decide to try something new. That’s what selling is. What I find miraculous in the majority of startup scenarios is how much of a job they will do in the first instance to build pitch decks to try and drive funding. You may get the idea out the door, but then fail to take that same tenacity or care towards how they can work with consumers or partners to be able to generate sustainable revenue streams, to be able to keep the business in it for the long.
[00:08:07] Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, I think the I think the nature of silos has changed. I think. I think.
[00:08:15] Yeah. I’m not sure. I’m not sure if it’s.
[00:08:17] I mean, you obviously know much better than may feel. You know, I think there’s been I think it’s not just the way that people need to be.
[00:08:23] So to I think if you go back then, there was a time when door to door sales. I think there was a time when that that worked. I think the ways people have changed and we have just like in marketing with built-up natural filters to the things we don’t want to say or don’t want to hear.
[00:08:41] And I think as a result, the sales process, at least from my perspective, has become a lot more, shall I say, honest or aligned in the sense that it’s about making sure that you are aligned with the individual who you you’re communicating with your taking on board what it is that that they’re saying and you’re trying to deliver an outcome that’s going to solve a genuine problem that they have.
[00:09:02] And if you don’t have a solution to that problem, it’s not about just trying to sell something for the sake of selling something. It’s about acknowledging that maybe you’re not the best fit for them.
[00:09:12] Yeah, well, all of that what you’ve just said is true. The big difference, though, if we just try and draw a line in and help people see the difference is the end user or the customer is a great delivery of education.
[00:09:24] They’ll never be lost.
[00:09:26] So if you refer back to a door-To-Door salesperson in the 90s or in the early 2000s, etc., they could show up and say whatever they wanted to say and there was very little tool attached to was how you could fact check that and that you’d have to be able to either trust or distrust that person.
[00:09:44] And so much could be done through rapport building and so much could be done through this perception of trust. Whereas in today’s market, you’re often meeting a consumer at a very, very different level of education, whether that’s the homework they’ve done online, whether that’s the third party credibility that picks up from elsewhere, whether it’s the latest research, who you are as a person ahead of time and decided how much of what you say they’re going to believe. And it means buyer is a greater level of empowerment within the negotiation. And you must never be able to disrespect that. It actually plays into the hands of anybody whose integrity based in their approach. Because it means, to your point of what was being said earlier on, is that we just have to dance them to that decision making. And if you approach conversations with more curiosity as opposed to more certainty, what you end up doing is you find Dale is the fit, right. And if the fits right, you can then with almost zero resistance, moving on to the next step. And if the fit is wrong, you can naturally move on to your next opportunity again with zero friction because it ends up being a great deal of accuracy for all parties.
[00:10:59] Yes, just wohlsen business to beat up feel for one thing that’s always puzzled me is the fact that I think there are certain stigmas attached to certain professions. I’ll give you a couple of examples which are vastly different. So, you know, I think on one hand you’ve got I think on one hand you’ve got, say, your standard recruiter.
[00:11:16] I think whether you’re on the I think whether your H.R. side, as in within an organization or you’re an employee side. So you go looking for a job. I think in both of those scenarios, speaking with a recruiter can often same. They can often seem very come across as very invasive, very in-your-face, and often just trying to close a deal. You flip that on its head and you speak with, say, you know, seven consultants I’ve worked with when it comes to the communication comes from a genuine place of caring. You don’t feel like you’re being so, too, because for all intents and purposes, despite the fact that there is a transaction, it doesn’t feel transactional. It feels like there is a genuine eagerness to help. Right. And that model or that that mentality underpins their whole business model. How is it that two careers who are ultimate, which which are both ultimately selling to the same individual, the same sort of company, can have such a different relationship simply due to the profession in which they operate?
[00:12:16] I think the same thing exists in every profession, right. Some people take a longer career driven view. Some people take the short term. How quickly can I get the commission to get out the door? You see this just about everywhere. And I think well, you should cite from that is look at things like how do you create compensation brands when you’re approaching people saying what do you do to create incentives around your pipelines to ensure that what you’re doing is you’re driving the right kind of behavior through your workforce? And that explains the difference typically. And for example, if you’re recruiting an army of people, the commission only get paid on contract, rather reinstallation or that paid on signing an agreement as opposed to its success back to the right individual.
[00:13:04] Then what you’ll see is you’ll see a salesperson chase the path of least resistance. The majority of sales professionals are inherently lazy. And I’m not saying that like it’s a bad thing is what they will do is they will figure out the shortest possible to get to the outcome they’re looking for. If you can redesign defining what you call success, you can take somebody very talented and apply to a new set of metrics. What would that look like from the recruitment example? You could tell somebody success in getting somebody to agree to a contract and turning up on day one, or you could get somebodies understanding that success. Is that candidate going on to be successful within that role for twelve months or more?
[00:13:44] Plus, that client giving us their next placements, that redefining of what success looks like gives a winner something different to chase. But if you define winning as sign the deal of the day, that’s what you’ll break as a lot of people are going to get after it. I think what might help this conversation that touch further, Russo, is is just redefining what selling really is. And if I was to be asked to define what salesmanship is in modern world well, what is selling is merely earning the right to make a recommendation. What I mean by that is that you should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever invite anybody to buy your thing unless you can say these words first and the words and invite you to look be able to say first of the woods because of the fact that you said. Because of the fact that you said A, B and C is for those reasons, I’d recommend X, Y and Z.
[00:14:34] And that sounds simple.
[00:14:36] It just means that you have to do the work so that you can say because of the fact that you said you have to be able to have I’ve got deep enough into a conversation to mean that you can go on to recommend from a position of authority.
[00:14:50] And that authority is not necessarily your expertise, it’s your expertize, adding to the unique set of circumstances.
[00:14:58] And I can kind of summarize that really by saying that content without context is noise. The context is often the most important thing to be at. What’s it work on in the discovery phase without the right level of context? Does it matter how good a story? You can wrap around your products offering a service offering.
[00:15:17] It’s not sure.
[00:15:19] You’re exactly right. I think, you know, I’d love to flip the potatoes and think. Let me think. Let’s think on the other end of the table. Sorry. You know, I talk about kind of, I guess, there for an individual who maybe hasn’t taken that step yet.
[00:15:30] I think one of the analogies I always like to think of that for someone who hasn’t taken that leap of faith and has started their own business, which I know characterizes a lot of our listeners, if I as an individual, I’m someone who has worked for another company, whether it be a part time job or I’ve worked for 20 years, you know, working my way up the corporate ladder. It doesn’t really matter. Chances are I’ve spoken to a recruiter some capacity. I like using recruiters as an example, because whether you’re a company or an employee, you’ve experienced that. You’ve experienced that role. And I think we’ve all seen that kind of stereotypical recruiter who is really just pushing for the commission. And I’m not saying that characterizes all of them. I went some great, great friends who are recruiters, and we’ve been working together for years because I’ve approached it exactly the way that you’re saying feel. So I think there you know, for someone who hasn’t worked on the employer side before and has been employee side, there are two interactions in life that I find really interesting.
[00:16:27] One is the nature of going for a role where a lot of the time it can seem like your getting you’re constantly being given phone calls about roles that could be suitable for you by a person who you don’t believe intricately understands you as a person. And it seems it seems very intense. But there’s one there’s one kind of, I guess, completely alternate viewpoint, which I think really closely aligns with what you think set. You work with what you’re saying feels so. And and that is the process of going into a cafe, certainly not a professional setting, but the process of going into a cafe, I find really fascinating to study when it comes to sales for the simple reason that when I’m walking down the street and there are five different cafes that I’m tossing out between if someone were to walk outside one of those cafes and trying to entice me to come in, I don’t think I’d find that particularly appealing. But by the time that I walk into that cafe and take a seat, the process of that individual at the restaurant, whether it be a waiter, a waitress, the process of that individual then asking me what I would like is something that I desire. It is saying that I want them to do. By this point, I’ve made up my mind that I am going to be giving them this. I’m going to be, you know, frequenting that venue. And so I want them to come up to me and ask. And the beauty is the thing that I find really fascinating is even after I’ve had a coffee and maybe some breakfast, if they come back to me and ask me if I want a second coffee before I head off, that feels like they’re doing me a favor. And it seems like something that a lot don’t do. But when they do ask it, it feels like they’re doing me a favor. Even at the end of the day, that is a transactional process. And now, while I understand that, you know, life is different to, you know, nonprofessional settings are very different to professional settings. I think there’s a lot to be learned from that kind of from that interaction, because as you said, by that point, there has been an acknowledgment that I am at that particular place and I want what that place has to offer. But I don’t think people think about that when it comes to so I don’t think they think about. Wait a second. Does this person actually want what I have to offer? Can I offer them something? Because I’ve heard what problems they’re facing at the moment. And contextually, it makes sense to offer them this product or service.
[00:18:40] Well, you’re talking about is the creation of the permission based improvization. And you example, the fact that you walk through the door, each of these to see they had permission to make requests of you as to whether you’d like a pastry, a Gotha, an extra coffee once it’s safe for a friend. Anything else that came with that was all within any context that was created by the environment. You gave mission to be on the inside. And that same thing is true in many other sorts of circumstances. But let’s just move the analogy on slept and think about the dating game.
[00:19:16] Because when it comes to looking for somebody to have relations with, whatever those relations, whether you had an intent towards, you could get one level of success by asking everybody on the street whether they’d be interested in going, how would you like you could take a very different strait’s strategy if you were looking for a lifelong partner. And if you were looking for a lifelong partner and you showed up in a way that was looking like you were looking for a one night stand, the chances are you would actually Rapanui a lifelong partner. So it’s all about choosing what you’re in this for. Move back towards that. Is this a long play or is this something you’re looking to be transactional towards? And my advice to anybody looking to to get into sales roles or to do more in a sales capacity is to think about lifetime value of a customer. And when I say lifetime value, I’m not even saying just what they could spend themselves. Is what the ripple effect of their reputation, sharing about their experience of doing business with you could go on to be added to live. So that’s how many times would they transact with you over there? Five, six, seven, nine, 15. Twenty five year life. How many people would they introduce you to? How many people would they go? And how much revenue would they go on to be in to spend with you? If this job is done right and then you set your store level. To get as much of a percentage of that size of a pie. You said that you’ve calculated based on the on the on the value of a customer. And I think that can help people really change their approach. Bring that back to would your recruitment scenario. You could view it. As you know, he’s won 70 grand job with a 20 percent fee. That’s a towards it, providing they stay for three months with a 10 percent commission attached towards that 20 percent fee. Well, you could look at it and say both this candidate and this employee are likely to go on to do this amount of more business with us over a period of time, if that lead in that recruiting agency moves to go elsewhere, that there’s a good possibility. I’ve done my job right. They’ll take with it. Etc., etc., etc.. And one relationship could lead to hundreds of pieces of business. And that’s the ability to be able to see the bigger picture and then choose your actions based on that bigger picture viewpoint that allows you to have increased levels of integrity in the way you work.
[00:21:36] It’s hardly Chir and it’s, you know, using the recruitment example. I’ve seen things mostly employee side, so I’ll speak from that perspective. But it’s a difference between a recruiter I’ve never contacted before or never been in contact with who sends me a CV or a resume and says, hey, he’s someone who I think could be interesting to Station five. I know we haven’t spoken before, but, you know, here’s who they are. Here’s what they do. I notice that your business specializes in this particular field. It’d be great to have a chat if you could be of interest versus the complete other end of the spectrum, which is, you know, the recruiter who gives you a call for the first time. So you’ve got that, you know, the best personal opportunity you’re going to get and turns around and says, hey, you know, would you like to meet up in person? Can I come past your office and see, you know, see what you guys are about and see what the team culture is like and and understand that to see if to see if I’m able to, you know, help you out in finding someone who could potentially be a good fit for your team. And at that point, the dialog completely changes because what it creates is an alignment between not just what it is that I need as an immediate as an immediate outcome, but that person wanting to gain an understanding of the context or the environment that they’re recruiting potential candidates into. And it gives me the confidence that the people that they’ll bring in are going to align, which take some of the work effort off my plate as well, of having to screen 50 odd candidates before I find someone who could potentially be a culture alignment. Therefore, you’ve earned your fee. Exactly. Yeah. And you know what? It’s those relationships that have led to multi-year relationships, regardless of where that individual works, whether it’s at firm a bay or say, I will continue to work with that person. And I think that interpersonal relationship is something that, you know, going back to the door to door sales person. I don’t think ever really existed. And I think it’s one of these wonderful things. We talk about the fact that all you know, I hear a lot of salespeople I speak to always say our sounds used to be, you know, used to be a lot easier. It used to be just more transactional. And for all intents and purposes, that had a lot of merits. But I think the flip side is, you know, the way things are set up at the moment or the way things have evolved because there is is really interpersonal relationship that starts to form due to sales or due to the sales process. I think that these relationships that have built can be lifelong, as ridiculous as that sounds for a sales person. And I’m sure if you went back 10, 15, 20 years and I’m told they life.
[00:24:00] I see a variety of people I’ve worked with over the years. You know, I do a huge amount of work in the U.S., in Australia through the margins. Yeah. And I’ll see Jenelle’s of big motor dealerships that are talking about that client that is coming back to by their grandchild, their first car. And when when they sold them a car. Thirty seven years ago. Mm hmm.
[00:24:27] And there they are on a friendly basis. They do talk about the things that are happening in the world. They do know enough about each other. They just become somebodies person for that area of their business. And that’s the difference between people who who are humble enough, to say the least. They have a career as a professional salesperson.
[00:24:48] They know the relationships are key and then they invest in those. I think the missing ingredient, when you look at the past and now is consequences, the game hasn’t changed. All that happened is historically you could of had a financially successful career.
[00:25:05] Because there were no consequences for you telling lies, because those consequences were being dealt with by another department and nobody had any transparency about what you did or you didn’t say. I’ve worked with lots of customer service departments through the years that have had to undo the work of terrible salespeople and many companies very much used to have to have an entire division of people in place to reset expectations from the lies that were told by the sales people at the front end.
[00:25:34] Those departments don’t exist so much anymore.
[00:25:38] Because the the consumer has more buying power and the responsibility of the sales professionals to tell the truth and to lend park is the truth in the best possible way so that somebody is expectations can be exceeded past transactions. And that’s the bit that allows businesses to be sustained over a period time, is that if you can to the old adage under sell over deliver, you’re in great shape. Anybody can tell a story about something being more than what it is, and then it falls short of the point of delivery. Your business won’t last five minutes if that’s the story that’s being said today. You have to be out of the woods, which means you have to be at a cell simply for exactly what it is and nothing more than.
[00:26:20] Yeah, I agree. You know, I think this is one of the thing feeling I put you on the spot with this bit.
[00:26:28] One thing that I’ve found to be immensely beneficial to me is and from your not just not just from a relationship standpoint, but from a financial standpoint as well. You are the merits of two things. One is the second or third stage or phase, as in the second or third, engagement with the same person. Once they have once you’ve worked with them in that in the first instance, it is non transactional. You have this approach and a follow up instances of them working with you. And secondly, something that you just touched upon, which is referrals and strengthen referrals. How how, you know, if you do compared the kind of initial transaction or the initial the initial contract with whether it be a future contracts or referrals. How? I mean, I’ve personally noticed a huge, you know, a huge boost in the in the relationship and and in the financial value of of those transactions when when it does get to that stage, when it does get to that more evolved. You know what? When does gets that more involved stage in the interaction? What what have you found in that whole kind of process? First versus second or third phase plus referrals that kind of come from it and dealing in dealing with with another professional?
[00:27:45] Well, we we’re inherently talking about is the ability to develop the the ultimate test of a relationship, and that is trust. Once trust is a given and understand that trust is is almost always given cleanly up from. It has been lost over a period of time as opposed to it being earned. But once somebody has the confidence that trust reciprocates and reiterates time and time again, then what you do is you enter into the exponential growth period of a relationship. So you’re talking about whether a second, third, fourth that they say, etc., wherever that that point would come, it is inevitably going to lead to more business. Because now what they have is there is a stronger recommendation about what you can deliver for them and the increased level of confidence about what you can do for that vigil, too. I would build every relationship. So was the fact that your goal is to turn them into. I would have that in your sights from the get go. And the second somebody refers you.
[00:28:46] You’ve just increased their loyalty. For two reasons. One is the. They’ve got to be able to enjoy passing on the gift of your brilliance, which is further reinforced their belief in your brilliance.
[00:29:03] Bigger than that, though, is if somebody is referring you, they’ve told somebody else that you’re also.
[00:29:11] Which means that they’re going to continue to look for evidence to support that belief. That’s why the loyalty pieces then continue to be dry. So I’d always be looking to say, what can I do to create referral partners? What can I do to create ambassadors out my customer base? What can I do to turn them into a silent salesforce for me, creating increased level of opportunity?
[00:29:34] Because, again, your conversion rate is then improved by anybody. Those people introduce sales isn’t something you do. Say it was not what you achieve as a result of the thing that you do.
[00:29:45] And that is what a salesperson’s role or responsibility is, is delivering a quantity of business and the rest of the business is dependent upon you, bring in that hand. And that’s what the whole operation is being built. And how you do it. In many ways is irrelevant. As long as you bring the number in and you’re doing it with integrity, etc.. Now, there is always a way of being able to compete through hard work and energy. You’ll see on a football pitch, you’ll see on a rugby pitch. You’ll see a cricket game. What I like, like in all sporting events, people can find a seat in the arena. And just by showing up. Walking out.
[00:30:24] Those people never reached the levels of mastery because hard work will only take you so far. The people who reach levels of mastery. Understand?
[00:30:36] It is how you get people to work with each other. That gives you the benefit of scale and it gives you the benefit of leverage.
[00:30:44] The reason that in your example, one individual can work a significant number fewer hours than the other person.
[00:30:52] Is because of who they are, not what they do.
[00:30:57] And the WHO is a really important thing and a very simple metaphor that everybody will understand is you could take the exact same e-mail. Same tech, same copy, same everything. And changing merely who that e-mail was from. Will influence open right action, right and clickthrough just based on who is wrong. And that is the most powerful part of any action in the sales and marketing function is who is delivering the ask?
[00:31:29] And the relationship piece you’re talking about is the stuff that develops and grows, the value of the WHO. It means the the all of the work that could be done in multiple touch points gets fast tracked or disregarded or is or is achieved without friction because there’s inherently trust in place. It’s being delivered through the building of the relationship.
[00:31:48] And that’s why that relationship he’s building is such an important part of the role.
[00:31:53] Yeah, I’ll give you the caveat side of this, too. And I was in a coaching corps with a group of real estate agents earlier on today. And there was one particular individual who has written no business in 18 months that was trying to convince the other part of the group the all of her time is invested in building relationships and crane report, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:32:17] Absolutely. I value those attributes in somebody in a sales role is that those things are necessary.
[00:32:24] Yet business still needs to be written. An opportunity still needs to be created. And people mistake the. Building of a relationship, too. I’m working to try to get them to like me. I’m working to try and turn this person into a friend or to impress them.
[00:32:44] Whereas what we really should be working towards is to get greater clarity and understanding of their unique circumstances so we know how we can help them better. And show up with a genuine level of interest in them so we can accelerate the path to trust.
[00:32:58] Yeah. Yeah, definitely, yeah. Hundred percent agree, few. There’s one thing I want to talk about. One last thing. Sorry, I’m conscious of the time, so we might have to keep this pod brief.
[00:33:11] But it’s there’s feel there are certain phrases that I know that you like to reinforce through through your coaching that people should use during the sales process. I’ve got a few of them in front of me, so I’ll rattle them off for for the listeners. A couple of them. Don’t worry. What’s going to be easier? I’m not s ure if it’s right for you. But would it be okay if I. Can you talk to me about the importance of these phrases and how people can can start to reframe their thinking so or reframe their conversation so they can start to incorporate these? And also just start to reframe how it is that they’re actually thinking so that they approach from a place where these questions or statements are warranted.
[00:33:55] You bet. Yeah, I wrote a little book called Exactly What to Say, which includes twenty three sequences of words that can be simple prefaces or conversation starters that allow you to get your own way. Morals through the little to the subconscious brain. The lists get friction brain responses in the examples that you’ve laid down. We’ll start with perhaps something that lists out from near the start of the book. And one of the big things that stops people for asking for the things that they want in life is because that they a prediction. That’s what stops them actually being able bit make the ask. If we take off way, it’s just on packing secrets. It was that good. Allow you to ask just about anybody, just about anything. And it completely rejects Bre-X. That might be a fun place to be at the store. If I wanted somebody to consider an idea of mine, I might prefix it with the words. I’m not sure if it’s a. If we use the words, I’m not sure if it’s for you, the little voice inside head does two things. Thing number one, it does is it says, well, well, I’ll be the judge of that. It takes all personal responsibility for the fact the decision needs to come next. The second thing that happens is perhaps even more powerful is curiosities. The voice says, what is it? Leans in, wants to understand more about what’s to come next. So I can pretty face something with that rejection preopening with the words, I’m not sure if it’s for you. There is a three letter word that will, at the end of this example, is the three letter word. But the word should typically be avoided at all costs because what it does is it negates what was said prior. It wipes it out. You’ve been on the receiving end, the feedback. I’m sure our recruiter said at one point sign of I know you showed up and tried your best in the interview, but like, what do you remember? You remember everything that follows the bar. So it does just backspace was. Yeah. In this example, that’s exactly what you’d be looking to do.
[00:35:47] So if I wanted somebody to consider an idea, I might say I’m not sure if it’s for you. But if you considered X, Y and Z, hey, I’m not sure if it’s for you. But a new opening is just a piece here. I wonder whether it could be a good fit. Hey, I’m not sure if it’s for you, but we’ve been having your success with finding great quality candidates in this industry. Right. Is it just allows me to insert an idea into someone’s mind. But then I could further a conversation.
[00:36:09] From. Let’s take another example that you laid down there is is sometimes we get people stuck in indecision. Our job is to help them make them. I know. Get about. Is that making their mind up is difficult for them? If I want to help make their mind up, I might use the preface that the words what’s gonna be easier?
[00:36:31] So what’s going to be easy staying in this situation and our relationship with a vendor that, you know, you don’t like?
[00:36:38] Well, stepping across to us, giving us the chance.
[00:36:40] Knowing that you’re likely to save money and you get to work with people who are at least going to smiley you when they speak to you. You know, I project this all much 50/50 choice. But with the preface of the words, what’s going to be easier?
[00:36:56] The voice inside your head can only answer the direct question that’s being posed, which is the second of those options is clearly easier. So I present 50/50 choice by stacking entirely in the favor of the past. Looking for them to go now?
[00:37:08] Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think. I find it really fascinating. I was yeah, I think about four or five years ago when I started Station five. You know, there are a couple of these not not these these precise phrases, Philbert, but but a couple of variants that were given to me as a hey, give these go as part of a science course that I took right at the side of the business. And to be honest, I didn’t think much of it. I thought I thought, you know this there’s no way this is going to work.
[00:37:37] But I’ll be honest with you, the strength or power that these phrases have, which may seem like a difficult thing to adopt simply because it seems perhaps uncharacteristic or just like not the sort of thing that you’d say. The difference the difference is that that those phrases or change in dialog creates, I found was instrumental and I hold them of the highest regard.
[00:38:02] So so I really encourage people to check out the book and look into look into those those phrases in particular having trained over two million sales professionals.
[00:38:12] Still, the biggest difference that I’ve seen between those that do great and those that just get by is the ones that do great. They do know exactly what to say, when to say, how do you know the right words at the right time to make the difference? Sure, you need product knowledge and you need hard work and endeavor, and you need to be prepared to have some confidence. There were some not backs and all those other things are part of being successful in this world.
[00:38:35] But that that fine edge at the end is doing the work to understand that your words are your tool.
[00:38:42] And you talk about maybe try and some of these things, all of them feeling uncomfortable ways, just like if. Youre trying to master the playing of a new sport. Say, for example, that you’ve learned to play golf. You felt like to a standard. Then you’d take your first lesson with a pro, with the pro makes you change the way you hope. Well, it feels like you’re doing the weirdest thing that’s ever been experienced in your life. Yet when you work straight for a period of time, you have an increased level of consistency and an increased level of certainty on the outcome you’re going to get from taking that shot with that new technique. That’s what happens when you when you master word choices and it still comes round to the fact the worst time to think about the thing you’re going to say is in the moment. You’re saying so many conversations are remarkably predictable if you’re honest enough about it, and if you do the work to get ready before you’re in the work, when you’re in the work, you can show more presence, more authenticity, be more intimate in that very moment because you’re not thinking about trying to make up your words on the spot.
[00:39:40] Yeah, I totally agree. Unfortunately, I feel we’re going to need to wrap up there for those who do want to read more, and I certainly encourage you to do so. Phil, his latest book, as he mentioned earlier, is called Exactly What to Say The Magic Words for Influence and Impact. And you can check out his website at Phil M. Jones dot com. Phil, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us and for all the tips.
[00:40:04] And best of luck to you and everybody else listening.
[00:40:22] The venture podcast with Lambros Photios.